Question for Wallis and Sapphire

[Wallis]

Originally Posted by emilynghiem

Hey Wallis, thanks to you and Wouldhe and others chipping in input, I think we are really getting somewhere with what is going on with our differences, and how the heck are we going to deal with the diverse splits. I'm running late, so I will only answer one point and save the rest for next time:



Yes, OT is more retributive justice, where people get killed off etc.

NT is more about restorative justice, where we are forgiven as we forgive others.

So we have a chioce, to live by OT justice or NT justice.
To live by the laws of truth and love, or die by the sword.

It's the same sword, double edged, as Sapphire said Jesus is the judge.
But the Bible says his role is to save the world, to use the mercy/forgiveness grace side of God to save us from the OT ways where we killed each other out of retribution and unforgiveness. That is wehre divine forgiveness and grace in Christ Jesus brings us salvation fromt he ways of death by unforgiveness.

1. Sapphire is wrong. Jesus is not the Judge. The Judge will always be God. And, by the way, Jesus is NOT God.

2. You are totally screwed up when it comes to what the Bible "says." You have been reading some of that bullshit propaganda again.

In the OT, God saves Israel. Israel = the nation. There is no individual salvation in the OT. There is no hint of individual salvation in the OT.

In the NT, thanks to Paul, God saves Israel. Israel = believers/all people (depending on which pseudo-Christian dogma you want to believe in).

3. Again, Jesus did not bring salvation. You would make Jesus a god? a crime punishable by death in Judaic times? Not even he was that stupid.

He brought a philosophy of life and relationship to the Father. It was very simple. Believe that to be true. There was no "believe me" aspect in the very corrupt interpretation of modern times whereby people have got to believe in Jesus in order to be saved! There is no forgiveness needed either. God has already forgiven. Period. IT has already forgotten. Salvation comes only through faith (You and Me, God, together!), not through silly acts of contrition, ritual, and self-fagellation.

[emilynghiem]

Originally Posted by Wallis

1. Sapphire is wrong. Jesus is not the Judge. The Judge will always be God. And, by the way, Jesus is NOT God.

2. You are totally screwed up when it comes to what the Bible "says." You have been reading some of that bullshit propaganda again.

In the OT, God saves Israel. Israel = the nation. There is no individual salvation in the OT. There is no hint of individual salvation in the OT.

In the NT, thanks to Paul, God saves Israel. Israel = believers/all people (depending on which pseudo-Christian dogma you want to believe in).

3. Again, Jesus did not bring salvation. You would make Jesus a god? a crime punishable by death in Judaic times? Not even he was that stupid.

He brought a philosophy of life and relationship to the Father. It was very simple. Believe that to be true. There was no "believe me" aspect in the very corrupt interpretation of modern times whereby people have got to believe in Jesus in order to be saved! There is no forgiveness needed either. God has already forgiven. Period. IT has already forgotten. Salvation comes only through faith (You and Me, God, together!), not through silly acts of contrition, ritual, and self-fagellation.

Dear Wallis: If you are talking about the man Jesus, that is different from the spiritual laws of Justice that Jesus represents on a global scale.

(1) What it means for Jesus to be God and to have all authority vested to judge:

In this context, Wallis, Jesus means the incarnation or embodiment of Divine Laws of Justice in the earthly realm of man. So by the authority of Justice that is universal to all people, that is the STANDARD by which truth is judged.
You are making this too personal and limited on a human level. In this context we are talking about Truth and Justice on a universal Global scale. The Bible says "judge not but judge righteous judgment" so that is where truth is used as the standard for judging if people's judgment is consistent with itself. And having Jesus or justice in our hearts by conscience facilitates this process. Collectively, as all humanity comes to reconcile with truth through this process, that is where Jesus in our hearts represents establishing Justice among all men.

(2) Yes, the OT is BEFORE Jesus and the NT is after. So Jesus meaning salvation is after we receive the spirit of Justice with Mercy that Jesus and the Holy Spirit represent. I have no disagreement with you, Wallis that salvation does not come until the NT. Sorry if I said this in a way that seemed otherwise.

(3) You are just looking at his earthly role as a teacher and model. I am talking about what Jesus represents beyond his material incarnation.

I am trying to think of an equivalent you might understand.
What about seeing the Constitution as just a bunch of written laws for a limited
application to certain people. Or seeing the spirit of the Constitution as standing for democracy and a sustainable system of checks and balances that can help all of mankind to grow to political and social maturity, including perfecting the system of due process so it no longer has to be hijacked by greed and abuses?
So you can look at it "literally" and see only what is historical about these.
Or you can look at the higher spirit of the process they serve, and see more.

I think you are looking at it the opposite way, Wallis.
You are looking at the historical material Jesus, and saying how is this God.

I am looking at "what Jesus has to mean" in order to fulfill such a role as the Messiah/message and saving grace of all humanity, and THEN seeing how this would be incarnated in the physical man Jesus to go through sacrifice and rebirth in the hearts of all humanity to join us as one in peace and accord.

I am not talking about Jesus human form, but the MEANING of Jesus and Salvation on a spiritual level in order to fulfill the spiritual human process.

Wallis if you have trouble equating any of this with Jesus, let us just stick with discussing the human process of spiritual development, and how to move from OT behavior of hanging others while excusing ourselves by the letter of the law and toward forgiving correcting and loving one another by the spirit of the law.

Let's start with how YOU define the process, the before and after, and what causes the change people go through to let go of the old ways and be remade new in the new ways when they realize they are one with all others in society.

What do you say causes that change. How do people let go of their initial responses and learn to appreciate all things in life as good and beneficial?

Let's start with what YOU call these stages, and then after that, we might be able to match each stage to whatever in the Bible represents that stage. How do YOU describe human spiritual process or stages of developing to maturity?