What Does Support For Israel Really Mean?

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by hrdguera

How do you make peace with a people that have sworn to wipe your country and your people off the earth?

You could start by giving them back the land you stole from them.

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

First of all, all Hamas has to do is quit firing rockets into Israel and everything will cease - no brainer!

First of all, all Israel has to do is to comply with the directives of the UN Resolutions telling it to withdraw from Palestine and perhaps Palestinians would stop fighting to get back what is rightfully theirs - no brainer!

All the Palestinians have to do is cease the hostilities and try to live in peace and things would be better.

That's just what the white settlers told the native American Indians bro!

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

You make it sound like Israel is to blame.

They are! They are illegally occupying and settling on land that does not belong to them.

Originally Posted by hrdguera

What would you do if it was the USA?

Yes, what would you do if it was the USA but instead of putting yourself in the place of Israel, put yourself in the place of Palestine. Lets say that Canada invaded the USA, took over or destroyed the homes of US citizens, prevented US citizens from going to work and thus prevented them from earning a living and then rounded up US citizens and put them into 'camps'. What would YOU do? The question is rhetorical of course because I know exactly what you would do. You would fight Canada with every means at you disposal and you would be first in the line to fire home-made rockets into Canada. You would do anything, ANYTHING to fight and get your country and your home back.

[pladecalvo]

Another thing that we need to bear in mind gentlemen is that, under international law, retaliation against attack must not be dis-proportionally to the attack. In other words, if your neighbour leans over the fence and picks one of your roses, you are not justified in jumping over the fence, killing his family and burning down his house.

That is the situation we have there at the moment. One home-made rocket fired into Israel that smashes a couple of windows does not warrant retaliation with a barrage of million dollar laser guided missiles that kill 150 civilians.

[Wouldhe]

Plad-Plad-Plad yha tosser. I agree but disagree. I agree that perhaps the land was stolen but after all these years it's time this perception stops and everyone just live with what they have. This is the way the cards fell and the Palestinians need to get over it and move on. This is akin to the blacks not forgetting the slavery thing. What happened all those years ago needs to be left in the past and learn to live in peace.

However the land was acquired is history. The viloence has to come to an end. Israel might be willing to give some things back if the Palestinians would just quit fighting.

The history of the region has/is dictating events today. You can't use Canada as an example because the history is completely different. You are right. If Mexico or Canada invaded the U.S. most certainly.

It's not quite like that Plad. Hamas has been firing hundreds of rockets into Israel. There isn't one nation on the planet that would not respond the same way to being bombarded. Also, there is a direct link from Hamas to Iran and we know what Iran's story is and how they feel about Israel.

I don't think one thing would change if Israel gave them their land back.

[hrdguera]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

You could start by giving them back the land you stole from them.

First of all, all Israel has to do is to comply with the directives of the UN Resolutions telling it to withdraw from Palestine and perhaps Palestinians would stop fighting to get back what is rightfully theirs - no brainer!

That's just what the white settlers told the native American Indians bro!

I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians and yes, I see the Israelies as opportunists. But that is the way it is in diplomacy. The situation is as it is now. It is Israel. And whatever they do in retaliation is what Hamas and Iran asked for. Egypt, Syria, and Iran better get used to it because the Israelis don't fuck around when it comes to getting even.

[Stevomeo]

Given some of the logic here, perhaps we should all return to the countries of our ancestors and leave America to its indigenous peoples If some one starts lobbing missiles into your country, you kick their ass!!! This is another example of Islamic terrorism for which none of us should which we should have zero tolerance for, whether you label it Palestinian, Iranian, Syrian, it makes no difference.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

Plad-Plad-Plad yha tosser. I agree but disagree. I agree that perhaps the land was stolen but after all these years it's time this perception stops and everyone just live with what they have.

All these years??? What ...45 years? Do you pay your respects on Veteran's Day bro..or do you just say 'Ah forget it. It was a long time ago. That's the way the cards fell for those guys'? Nah mate...there are some things that are so unjust that they should never be forgotten and always fought against.

You can't use Canada as an example because the history is completely different.

You can use any country you want bro. Canada was just used as an example.

You are right. If Mexico or Canada invaded the U.S. most certainly.

Indeed! That is what Israel did to the Palestinians.So why are the Americans justified in fighting the invasion of the USA by say...France but the Palestinians are not justified in fighting against the invasion by Israel?

It's not quite like that Plad. Hamas has been firing hundreds of rockets into Israel.

...and Israel has fired thousands of hi-tech missiles at the Palestinians. Also, if one country invades and illegally occupies another, it can hardly complain when the occupied country fights back. Remember, retaliatory action against attack must not be disproportionate to the attack. Since 2000 alone, there have been over 6000 Palestinians killed. Contrast this with just over 1000 Israeli deaths. In this recent episode we have had over 80 Palestinian deaths compared to 3 Israeli deaths.

I don't think one thing would change if Israel gave them their land back.

Perhaps not, but we will never know unless they do. If they gave back the occupied territory and the Palestinians continued to launch an offensive at Israel, at least Israel would have some justification in taking retaliatory action but at the moment it isn't. At the moment it is an aggressor that has invaded and occupied another country and is refusing to leave despite world opinion that it should and despite the dictates of an organization that it is a member of telling it to withdraw.

What I would like to see (beside Israel withdrawing of course) is Israel being ejected from the UN. That might start the process for peace.

I'm not saying that I agree with the actions of the Palestinians here but I am saying that I do sympathise with them. If someone kicked me out of my home, stole my land and my livelihood, I dare say I would not be averse to lobbing a few rockets at them myself.

Since 1967, 0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,813 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel.
Israel currently has 236 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated (stolen) Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. There are no Israelis being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 5,604 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. Add to that, the fact that the Palestinians see the world condemning Israel for it's actions yet not offering to help them with anything other than empty rhetoric and 'strongly worded statements' and is it any wonder that Palestinians feel aggrieved? As one Palestinian said...'You accuse us of terrorism. Give us the same weapons as you are giving Israel and there will be no need of terrorism'.

Originally Posted by Stevomeo

Given some of the logic here, perhaps we should all return to the countries of our ancestors and leave America to its indigenous peoples

You can roll your eyes all you want pal but we are no longer living in a time when we can land on the beach, plant a flag and claim that country in the name of the king. Things are more civilised now and if two countries are at war, the victor cannot claim the land of the vanquished as his own. What Israel has done and is doing is politically wrong, against international law (that they have signed up to) and morally wrong. The fact that the USA and Britain is supporting it is also morally wrong.

If some one starts lobbing missiles into your country, you kick their ass!!!

What if you have no right to be there??? And why do you see Israel lobbing high tech bombs at the Palestinians as 'self-defence', yet when Palestinians lob bombs at Israelis, you see it as 'terrorism'?

This is another example of Islamic terrorism for which none of us should which we should have zero tolerance for, whether you label it Palestinian, Iranian, Syrian, it makes no difference.

I see no mention of Israeli terrorism there.

[NOLA]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

They are! They are illegally occupying and settling on land that does not belong to them.

Yes, what would you do if it was the USA but instead of putting yourself in the place of Israel, put yourself in the place of Palestine. Lets say that Canada invaded the USA, took over or destroyed the homes of US citizens, prevented US citizens from going to work and thus prevented them from earning a living and then rounded up US citizens and put them into 'camps'. What would YOU do? The question is rhetorical of course because I know exactly what you would do. You would fight Canada with every means at you disposal and you would be first in the line to fire home-made rockets into Canada. You would do anything, ANYTHING to fight and get your country and your home back.

Reminds me of the movie Red Dawn that is being re-released soon. We KNOW how we would respond yet we close our eyes and plug our ears when we look at Palestine and pretend its something else.
The worst part of this for me is that the Palestinians have actually been incredibly conciliatory. If Isreal would just leave Gaza alone. If they could just be happy with what they have and would stop pushing and pushing and pushing the envelope we could have some peace. Instead they are always sticking their hand into the hornets nest then saying "who me?"

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

......after all these years it's time this perception stops and everyone just live with what they have.

You mean like Americans did when the USA was ruled by the British??

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by NOLA

We KNOW how we would respond yet we close our eyes and plug our ears when we look at Palestine and pretend its something else.

Quite so Nola. I'd venture that there is not one of us reading this thread, NOT ONE OF US, that would not do exactly as the Palestinians are doing.

The worst part of this for me is that the Palestinians have actually been incredibly conciliatory.

I agree! If some country had invaded and stole my land, demolished my house and left me to starve in some camp, I think you might be calling me a 'terrorist' too. The irony is that the actions of Israel are no different to what the settlers did to the native Americans and the response from the Palestinians is no different to how the American Indians responded...yet most Americans see it as 'different' some how.

I wonder if the present critics of the Palestinians, would consider the 'French Resistance' attacks against the invading German army in the 1940s as 'Terrorism' in the same way that they consider the Hamas attacks against the invading Israeli army as 'Terrorism'? There are an awful lot of Americans that tend to overlook the fact that the USA have certainly not been averse to getting into bed with 'terrorist' if it will benefit them. The Iran-Contra affair springs to mind, not forgetting the installation and upkeep of bin Laden. When Bin Laden was fighting the Russians, America saw him as a 'freedom fighter'. When he turned around and did the same to America, he suddenly became a 'terrorist'.

If Isreal would just leave Gaza alone. If they could just be happy with what they have and would stop pushing and pushing and pushing the envelope we could have some peace. Instead they are always sticking their hand into the hornets nest then saying "who me?"

Yep...and then whining because they got stung!