What Does Support For Israel Really Mean?

[Wouldhe]

Originally Posted by Stevomeo

You are correct "we" live in a civilized world, but the middle east as a general rule does not.

When you as a country are attacked in the manner Israel has been you have a few choices. 1) Do nothing at all, bury the bodies, and repair the damage. 2) You strike back at those who are attacking you as precisely as possible and you expand your borders and create a larger buffer zone between you and your enemy. If Mexico was lobbing missiles into the US you can damn sure bet that we would enter Mexico and set up a de-militarized zone of sorts to protect our citizens from continued attacks.

Good question: Who lobbed the first missile? and thus far has lobbed over 1,300 since this skirmish began? The Palestinians.......and may I remind you that they are indiscriminate in nature unlike Israel's attempts to hit militant targets. This is how I see the line drawn between civilized nations and terrorists.

I've played "Switzerland" on this issue for many years. The reason that I lean toward the defense of Israel is not because they have won my mind and or heart. It's because the Palestinians and their Islamist ilk have proven that they are savages hell bent on destroying anyone and anything that doesn't bow to Allah. As for treatys, they are only worth the paper they are written on when one side cannot even acknowledge the existence of the other side.

Agreed.

[madmax]

Originally Posted by Stevomeo

You are correct "we" live in a civilized world, but the middle east as a general rule does not.

When you as a country are attacked in the manner Israel has been you have a few choices. 1) Do nothing at all, bury the bodies, and repair the damage. 2) You strike back at those who are attacking you as precisely as possible and you expand your borders and create a larger buffer zone between you and your enemy. If Mexico was lobbing missiles into the US you can damn sure bet that we would enter Mexico and set up a de-militarized zone of sorts to protect our citizens from continued attacks.

Good question: Who lobbed the first missile? and thus far has lobbed over 1,300 since this skirmish began? The Palestinians.......and may I remind you that they are indiscriminate in nature unlike Israel's attempts to hit militant targets. This is how I see the line drawn between civilized nations and terrorists.

I've played "Switzerland" on this issue for many years. The reason that I lean toward the defense of Israel is not because they have won my mind and or heart. It's because the Palestinians and their Islamist ilk have proven that they are savages hell bent on destroying anyone and anything that doesn't bow to Allah. As for treatys, they are only worth the paper they are written on when one side cannot even acknowledge the existence of the other side.

Hmmmm... I think Plad has some valid points. How would YOU feel if your lands were confiscated, if you were landlocked in a no-man's-land?

There are no black hats and white hats in this.

[Wouldhe]

Originally Posted by madmax

Hmmmm... I think Plad has some valid points. How would YOU feel if your lands were confiscated, if you were landlocked in a no-man's-land?

There are no black hats and white hats in this.

He does. It's just, how do we resolve this? I think what I would do at this point is, Israel pull back the forces and stop the airstrikes as goodwill message. My expectation would be that Hamas quits firing rockets into Israel. Now, Israel in good faith would lift the blockades and enter into negotiations to return some of the land. If all of this comes to past and Hamas starts loading up on rockets and placing them in the returned land and starts firing them off again then level Gaza.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Stevomeo

You are correct "we" live in a civilized world, but the middle east as a general rule does not.

You and Israel may well see them as 'uncivilised' but that does not give Israel the right to steal land.

When you as a country are attacked in the manner Israel has been you have a few choices. 1) Do nothing at all, bury the bodies, and repair the damage. 2) You strike back at those who are attacking you as precisely as possible and you expand your borders and create a larger buffer zone between you and your enemy. If

...or 3) Give back the land you stole and withdraw to the pre 1967 borders as directed to by many UN resolutions.

Mexico was lobbing missiles into the US you can damn sure bet that we would enter Mexico and set up a de-militarized zone of sorts to protect our citizens from continued attacks.

You conveniently ignore why rockets are being lobbed into Israel.

Good question: Who lobbed the first missile? and thus far has lobbed over 1,300 since this skirmish began ......The Palestinians?

You conveniently ignore why rockets are being lobbed into Israel.

.......and may I remind you that they are indiscriminate in nature unlike Israel's attempts to hit militant targets.

HUH??? WTF!! Are we talking about the same war here? Do you REALLY need me to supply you with a list of atrocities such as deliberate bombing of hospitals and schools by the Israelis?? It's not pleasant reading I assure you. What about the incident when Palestinian civilians were sheltering in a school. Both the Red Cross and the UN informed the Israeli military that they were there and the UN even gave the GPS co-ordinates to the Israelis....who ignored the information and bombed the school anyway...killing hundreds.

This is how I see the line drawn between civilized nations and terrorists.

So when the UN informs the Israeli army that civilians are sheltering in a school and even gives them the GPS co-ordinates for that school, only to have the Israelis bomb it anyway....what does that make the Israelis? Don't forget that Ben Gurion and Ariel Sharon were both members of terrorist organisations

I've played "Switzerland" on this issue for many years. The reason that I lean toward the defense of Israel is not because they have won my mind and or heart. It's because the Palestinians and their Islamist ilk have proven that they are savages hell bent on destroying anyone and anything that doesn't bow to Allah.

This is a typical blinkered American view I'm afraid. Not ALL Muslims/Islamists are "savages hell bent on destroying anyone and anything that doesn't bow to Allah"....no more than all Americans are fat bastards with a tendency to believe that 2000 year old mythology is actually true. You Americans seem to need 'something to fear' and now that there are no 'reds under the bed' you have jumped on the next best thing...Muslims!

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

Understood but how much land are we talking about..........

This much!

..and would it be expected that Israel just disappear?

No, they would live in the land that was given to them in the Balfour Declaration.

Where would the Isaeli's go?

Israel of course....and why should we be concerned where the Israelis go? Do they care where the Palestinians go when they evict them from their homes?

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

It's just, how do we resolve this? I think what I would do at this point is, Israel pull back the forces and stop the airstrikes as goodwill message.

Israel to comply with the UN resolutions directing it to dismantle all of it's settlements on Palestinian lands and withdraw to the pre 1967 borders. Until that happens, there will never be peace.

My expectation would be that Hamas quits firing rockets into Israel. Now, Israel in good faith would lift the blockades and enter into negotiations to return some of the land. If all of this comes to past and Hamas starts loading up on rockets and placing them in the returned land and starts firing them off again then level Gaza.

Wouldn't disagree with that.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by madmax

Hmmmm... I think Plad has some valid points. How would YOU feel if your lands were confiscated, if you were landlocked in a no-man's-land?

Thank you O'Wise One. It a question that tends to be ignored by those who condemn the Palestinians.

So let's see how many of them will answer the question:

Scenario.
You are Palestinian living with your family at home. Suddenly, the door is smashed in and six heavily armed Israeli soldiers charge into your home and tell you that you have one hour to collect your things and get out. You leave and watch helplessly as the machines move in and demolish your home and the homes of your neighbours so that homes for Israeli settlers can be built there. You have nowhere to go other than a squalid refugee camp run by some charity or other. You have no army or decent weaponry to fight back against the people that have taken your land, destroyed your home, killed your children and left you destitute.

Well folks...let's hear it! WHAT WOULD IF YOU DO if you were in the shoes of the Palestinians.

[Wouldhe]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Thank you O'Wise One. It a question that tends to be ignored by those who condemn the Palestinians.

So let's see how many of them will answer the question:

Scenario.
You are Palestinian living with your family at home. Suddenly, the door is smashed in and six heavily armed Israeli soldiers charge into your home and tell you that you have one hour to collect your things and get out. You leave and watch helplessly as the machines move in and demolish your home and the homes of your neighbours so that homes for Israeli settlers can be built there. You have nowhere to go other than a squalid refugee camp run by some charity or other. You have no army or decent weaponry to fight back against the people that have taken your land, destroyed your home, killed your children and left you destitute.

Well folks...let's hear it! WHAT WOULD IF YOU DO if you were in the shoes of the Palestinians.

Why would/did the soldiers do that?

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

Why would/did the soldiers do that?

Because the Israelis are expansionists. They need land to build settlements for other Israelis and as they don't have enough land themselves, the only way to get it is to take it from the Palestinians. That's the whole point of the feckin' fighting old chap! As the earlier charts show, since 1949 Israelis have been stealing land from the Palestinians for that very reason but not only are they stealing the land, they are evicting the Palestinian owners from that land. It would be bad enough if they were taking the land but leaving the Palestinians where they are but they are not. Palestinians are systematically evicted and now forced to live in small pockets of land like Gaza, prisoners in their own country.

Mark my words here. I wouldn't put it past Israel to 'manufacture' a reason to have a ground invasion, resulting in the taking of even more land that they will never give back.

...and you haven't answered the question. What would YOU do if you were Palestinian?

[Wouldhe]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Because the Israelis are expansionists. They need land to build settlements for other Israelis and as they don't have enough land themselves, the only way to get it is to take it from the Palestinians. That's the whole point of the feckin' fighting old chap! As the earlier charts show, since 1949 Israelis have been stealing land from the Palestinians for that very reason but not only are they stealing the land, they are evicting the Palestinian owners from that land. It would be bad enough if they were taking the land but leaving the Palestinians where they are but they are not. Palestinians are systematically evicted and now forced to live in small pockets of land like Gaza, prisoners in their own country.

Mark my words here. I wouldn't put it past Israel to 'manufacture' a reason to have a ground invasion, resulting in the taking of even more land that they will never give back.

...and you haven't answered the question. What would YOU do if you were Palestinian?

Hmmmmm..thinking.....

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

Hmmmmm..thinking.....

What's to think about bro? You would do the same as me if your homeland was invaded and occupied, your house destroyed, your children killed and your livelihood taken...you'd fight the invader. You'd fight them until there was no more fight left in you. You'd fire rockets at them and if you had no rockets you would throw stones at them. ....wouldn't you?

[Stevomeo]

Originally Posted by madmax

Hmmmm... I think Plad has some valid points. How would YOU feel if your lands were confiscated, if you were landlocked in a no-man's-land?

There are no black hats and white hats in this.

I acknowledge that he has valid points, as do I.