What Does Support For Israel Really Mean?

[Sapphire]

Originally Posted by Stevomeo

It's a tough crowd around here KW. Don't let the school yard bullies intimidate you..........some here just like to argue for the sake of argument and are intolerant of any thoughts that conflict with their opinions.

Yes, I agree. KWSeeks, don't get discouraged.

[madmax]

Originally Posted by Stevomeo

It's a tough crowd around here KW. Don't let the school yard bullies intimidate you..........some here just like to argue for the sake of argument and are intolerant of any thoughts that conflict with their opinions.

Hmmm.. really Steve? Plad is well versed on the subject.
And like I said, I don't reall have a dog in this fight. I have sympathies with both sides. And like I said, there are no clear "good guys" and "bad guys" here. The history is too complicated, the atrocities are on both sides.

I heard a very thoughtful analysis on this yesterday. It outlined what needs to happen for a sustainable peace. There are serious concessions that need to happen on both sides.

KW bit off more than he could chew. "Our leaders are afraid of terrorists". The Palestinian homeland was established just after WWI, the Jewish state after WWII. These are facts, yet KW goes on about how the UN established Israel so they have a right to exist.

Like you said in your post Steve - it's complicated, not that simple.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Stevomeo

Agreed. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why the UN hasn't acted upon Israel's alleged theft of Palestinian lands.

...and I'm still waiting for an explanation as what you would do were you a Palestinian.

As for you waiting for an explanation as to why the UN can't act. If you actually read the posts, you need not have waited so long. I addressed that in the latter part of post #47. I'm also wondering why you continue to ignore this symbol - ?. I have asked you dozens of questions and you have ignored them all.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Stevomeo

Terrorists tie bombs to women and children and send them into public areas to kill civilians. I would hope that little description differentiates the difference between the Palestinians and Jews. To the best of my knowledge the Israelis do not engage in such acts, nor due they sever the heads of their enemies, publicly execute people, etc.......

Do not change the subject. We are discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict not what Muslims may or may not do in their own countries. Also, you should be a little more reticent about condemning other countries for executing it's citizens when you are a citizen of a country that does that very thing. You are hardly in a position to criticise. The fact that they execute their citizens in public and your country executes it's citizens in private is seen as neither 'here nor there' by countries that have come to realise that capital punishment is barbaric.

You're mistaken if you believe that I am justifying the theft of land. This situation is much more complicated than meets the eye, as we all know. My point is if international law is being violated via the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, where is the intervention of the international authorities, i.e., the UN?

I have already told you. Further, in my opinion, the UN is nothing more than a talking shop. It makes decisions on the way it's members should behave and not much more. There have been dozens of legally binding resolutions condemning the actions of Israel, all of which Israel has blatantly ignored....and the reason they ignore them is because they know that they will be supported by Britain and the USA who will veto any action that the UN take against them. I think that the UN should at least try to expel Israel from the UN (not that it could of course due to the UK-USA veto) but whatever is done (or not done) the fact remains that Israel continues to hold land that they have taken by an act of war, contrary to international law. According to international law (to which Israel has signed it's commitment to adhere to), it is inadmissible to acquire territory by war.

Aren't there better ways to remedy this than to commence lobbing bombs at the civilian population of Israel?

Yes there are but first, Israel must give the Palestinians their land back. Now I'm not saying that this is going to solve the problem but it would at least be a start.

I find it hard to believe that the US and Brittain can stop the UN from intervening in the situtation, but I could be wrong.

Yes, you are wrong!

It's news to me that the Jewish/Israeli doctrine involves the annihilation of any group of people?

OK, that may have been putting it a little strongly but clearly, you have not read that article I gave you about the history of the conflict. What Jews want is to eliminate the Palestinians from the land so that they can have a Jewish state peopled ONLY by Jews. Read the article.

Read, study and inwardly digest.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/

Following the Zionist massacre of over 100 men, women, and children at Deir Yassin. Future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin described this as “splendid,” and stated: “As in Deir Yassin, so everywhere, we will attack and smite the enemy. God, God, Thou has chosen us for conquest.”
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian.”
Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir.

I'm not getting into discussions about Islam.

Yes you are...as the very first paragraph of your post #56 clearly indicates.

The information is out there for all to see. All one has to do is look at Western Europe and see how the Muslim invasion is working there, specifically in the Netherlands.

Irrelevant to the topic.

As far as China is concerned. I fail to understand why they are engaged in the largest military buildup the world has ever seen. Given their track record and lack of ethics I do not trust them. I don't know of any country that is a threat to their security, so a little paranoia from a cold warrior like myself is warranted. My prediction is that they will expand their borders in the next 10 years, and it won't just be a tiny country like Tibet either.

Irrelevant to the topic.

Originally Posted by KWSeeks

It Is because most of the world beleives that it belongs to Isreal.

If that is the case then why does Israel have so many UN resolutions condemning it's actions. The UN is made up of most of the countries of the word. If those countries really DID believe that the land belongs to Israel they would be rather stupid to vote that Israel should get out of their own land wouldn't they?? You display a staggering ignorance of the subject.

I suggest you all research the establishment of the State of Isreal and the establishment of Palestine. Isreal occupied that land until they were exiled. In 1948 the UN recognized the legal State of Isreal and their right to the land. The State of Palestine is still not recognized by the UN.

Read, study and inwardly digest.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/

You guys are typical. Instead of checking your facts you try to personally insult anyone who doesn't agree with you. I thought was in an intelligent discussion. Obvously I was mistaken. You guys can have this forum to yourselves. I am gone

Insults?? I haven't insulted you? Claiming that you have been insulted and then running away is the mark of someone that can't support the claims he is making.


Wake up U.S. taxpayers!!! $8 million per day of your tax money is going to support Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine and the oppression of the Palestinian people. $8 million every day!!

[Wouldhe]

So Plad, if Israel gave back all the land they took, what/where would the Israeli's go? This thread has been educational to me and I am trying to understand the dynamics. Earlier I said something to the effect of splitting Irael in half and give each their own country. My thought in doing so would was that of thinking about two squabbling children and in order to make them quit squabbling - they each get half!

It would be impossible to give back all the land to the Palestinians. I heard a good reason for not doing so and that is, Israel provides the only democratic government in the region that isn't hell-bent on fighting all the time.

Now trying to imagine what the region would look like if Israel did retreat to (who knows where) and give all the land back, it looks like to me that we end up with another country run by Muslims who will put their people under Taliban style rule. You would end up with another Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, ect. I don't believe the Muslims have the capability to bring themselves into the 21st century and the region would take one giant step backwards. Quite honestly I don't give a shit about Israel or anybody on that side of the world but Islam is on a world march to take it over just like they say they are going to do and we can't let that happen. If I have to default to something I would let Israel stay. Turning the region over to a radical Muslim people vowing to take over the world is not an option.

We see what happened and is still happening in Lebanon. Fatah and Hamas can't even get it together. Hamas pretty much took control and pushed Fatah out. If they don't have Israel to fight they will fight among themselves. Leaving the region to these scumbags would only be a disaster. At least Israel keeps their heads down to some extent.

[madmax]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Insults?? I haven't insulted you? Claiming that you have been insulted and then running away is the mark of someone that can't support the claims he is making.

Get used to it, Plad. There are a few of these on the Politics forums. They hurl insults when they are backed into a corner in their "argument"... then claim they are being "picked on".
Usually it's a case of them tossing out a post with no validity, then bitching when they are called out for it. No responsibility for what they post.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

So Plad, if Israel gave back all the land they took, what/where would the Israeli's go?

They would go to Israel - where they were supposed to live. That is the land given to them under the (unfair) UN Partition of Palestine in 1947. To be honest old boy, the problem is theirs and frankly, I have no more concern about where the Israelis go than the Israelis have for where the Palestinians go when they evict them from their homes and land. They got themselves into this mess when the expanded out of their borders onto land owned by someone else and it's for them to sort it out. Nobody worried about where the British would go when India claimed back their country, it was accepted that they would return to Britain...the Jews must return to Israel, that is their country.

Earlier I said something to the effect of splitting Irael in half and give each their own country. My thought in doing so would was that of thinking about two squabbling children and in order to make them quit squabbling - they each get half!

Wouldn't work mate! When you own something and someone steals that off you, you are not going to be satisfied if you only get 50% of it back and the thief is left to profit from the theft.

It would be impossible to give back all the land to the Palestinians.

Why?

I heard a good reason for not doing so and that is, Israel provides the only democratic government in the region that isn't hell-bent on fighting all the time.

But that's no different to saying that we should march into every politically unstable area in the world and take control. That is not our business bro....unless it begins to adversely affect us.

Now trying to imagine what the region would look like if Israel did retreat to (who knows where) and give all the land back, it looks like to me that we end up with another country run by Muslims who will put their people under Taliban style rule. You would end up with another Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, ect. I don't believe the Muslims have the capability to bring themselves into the 21st century and the region would take one giant step backwards.

Again, that is no business of ours unless it threatens to destabilise our own countries. I'm afraid that such thinking is what has made America the pariah of the world bro. It is too keen on marching into other countries and forcing it's idea of 'democracy' on those that don't particularly want it.

At the end of the day, Israel's occupation of Palestine contravenes international law and they can't be allowed to profit from that on the grounds that things 'might' get worse if they are forced to obey the law like everyone else has to.

Quite honestly I don't give a shit about Israel or anybody on that side of the world but Islam is on a world march to take it over just like they say they are going to do and we can't let that happen.

It won't.

We see what happened and is still happening in Lebanon. Fatah and Hamas can't even get it together. Hamas pretty much took control and pushed Fatah out. If they don't have Israel to fight they will fight among themselves.

So be it!

[dumbass]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

...and I'm still waiting for an explanation as what you would do were you a Palestinian.

Isn't it an accepted fact that the spoils of a war goes to the victor. Notably the "War of Independence" of 1948 and the "Six Day War" 0f 1967.

Since 1967, Israel ceded the Sinai back to Egypt and The Gaza to the Palestinians and they removed settlements from the West Bank as wouldhe said. They didn't have to do any of that but the fact remains that they did.

Just as we are going to learn that elections have consequences some are eventually going to accept the fact that wars also have consequences.

An all out war between the Palestinians and Israel without the restraint shown by Israel would have been a resounding "military" victory for Israel. Politically, probably not so much but again, in reality, Israel gave the Palestinians territory that, in a matter of a few days, could have been theirs.

[madmax]

Originally Posted by dumbass

Isn't it an accepted fact that the spoils of a war goes to the victor. Notably the "War of Independence" of 1948 and the "Six Day War" 0f 1967.

Since 1967, Israel ceded the Sinai back to Egypt and The Gaza to the Palestinians and they removed settlements from the West Bank as wouldhe said. They didn't have to do any of that but the fact remains that they did.

Just as we are going to learn that elections have consequences some are eventually going to accept the fact that wars also have consequences.

An all out war between the Palestinians and Israel without the restraint shown by Israel would have been a resounding "military" victory for Israel. Politically, probably not so much but again, in reality, Israel gave the Palestinians territory that, in a matter of a few days, could have been theirs.

We aren't in the Middle Ages anymore. We didn't "take over" Japan at the end of WWII.

Of course Israel could obliterate Palestine. But the repercussions would be huge. Like Germany rolling over Poland the rest of the world would step up to stop it.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by dumbass

Isn't it an accepted fact that the spoils of a war goes to the victor.

No it isn't an accepted fact and hasn't been for a couple of hundred years. One used to be able to sail off to another country, plant your flag on the beach, claim the the country in the name of 'the king' and tell the indigenous 'savages' that they are henceforth, subjects of 'the king'. Fortunately, things have changed and these days, international law states catalytically that a country is not allowed to gain territory by acts of aggression, i.e war. Israel is a signatory to that.

Since 1967, Israel ceded the Sinai back to Egypt and The Gaza to the Palestinians and they removed settlements from the West Bank as wouldhe said. They didn't have to do any of that but the fact remains that they did.

...but they DID have to do that..that's why they did it. The international outcry was so huge that they had no option than to give back the land. You might also note that the land they gave back was nothing but worthless scrub land that they had no use for. The good land that they took in 1967, they still have.

Just as we are going to learn that elections have consequences some are eventually going to accept the fact that wars also have consequences.

Yes, and Israel need to learn that 'might does not mean right' and that they can't just take what they want from someone else because they are stronger. That's what a bully does.

An all out war between the Palestinians and Israel without the restraint shown by Israel would have been a resounding "military" victory for Israel.

Of course. Are we supposed to applaud them because they have stolen the land but not annihilated the owners of the land? How about we arm the Arab nations like we arm Israel and let them get on with it. Who do you think would have the 'resounding "military" victory' then?

.......... in reality, Israel gave the Palestinians territory that, in a matter of a few days, could have been theirs.

Huh? WTF? Bravo Israel for giving back land to Palestine that already belonged to them!!!! You can't 'give' what does not belong to you.

Now my friend. Are YOU willing to answer the question:
.... If you were a Palestinian that had his land stolen, his home demolished, his family killed and his livelihood destroyed by an invading army - what would YOU do? How would YOU react?

...or like all the other posters that consider the Palestinians to be 'terrorists'..... will you ignore the question??