What Does Support For Israel Really Mean?

[evileye]

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

I don't now enough about the history to carry on an intellegent discussion. I seem to think though that we have to look at the history of the region leading up to 1947 to get a better understanding. At least for me.

Sounds like an intellegent plan.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by hrdguera

Maybe that was the plan? It makes sense for them to have their own "Manifest Destiny." Every other modern country has had one at one time whether it be "spheres of influence" or some sort of "Monroe Doctrine" or colonialism to protect their borders and increase their strength, wealth, and world power. Who can fault a country for looking after their own self-interests? That is the one thing that EVERY country has in common if it wants to survive long.
All Republics and democracies are self interest groups and morals and ethics are secondary, if that.

In the past undoubtedly and I would be the first to admit that there was nobody worse than the British for doing that but then it was considered an acceptable thing to do....as I said, plant your flag and claim the country for the king. But those days are long gone and today we have international laws to prevent such a thing. The world should be condemning Israel and supporting Palestine in order to show that what they are doing is unacceptable. Because we all did it in the past is not an excuse for doing it today.

Israel is a member of a 'club' (the UN) and it is disobeying the rules of the club, rules that it has signed up to obey. If it does not obey the rules of the club, it should have it's membership withdrawn.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by evileye

I personaly would like to cut aid from the rest of the world until a time when the USA is not in debt.

I'm sure the USA could do a lot with the €8 million a day it's spending on Israel.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

I don't now enough about the history to carry on an intellegent discussion. I seem to think though that we have to look at the history of the region leading up to 1947 to get a better understanding. At least for me.

Here. Read, study and inwardly digest!
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
http://www.representativepress.org/IsraelHistory.html

The Zionists showed up in the area in the late 19th century to reclaim their 'ancestral homeland'. They believed that as the Bible said it was their land, they had a right to take it from the Arabs. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there and gradually expanded through war or skirmishes...gradually taking a little more land every time.

Then came the UN partition in 1946/7 when the UN gave 56% of the country to 33% (Jewish) of the population. The Arabs were not happy as you can imagine!

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by hrdguera

While I am not ready to take up Plad's challenge I will submit a quote from one of the most important persons involved in Truman's eventual recognition of Israel, Chaim Weizmann. He referred to the dispute over Palestine division and creating a Jewish state as the "lesser injustice versus greater injustice."

Perhaps he had Truman's words ringing in his ears....

"I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents."
President Harry Truman, quoted in “Anti Zionism”, ed. by Teikener, Abed-Rabbo & Mezvinsky.

[pladecalvo]

In internal discussion in 1938 David Ben-Gurion stated that ‘after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine’...

In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: "The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever."
Source: Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”

[madmax]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Here. Read, study and inwardly digest!
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
http://www.representativepress.org/IsraelHistory.html

The Zionists showed up in the area in the late 19th century to reclaim their 'ancestral homeland'. They believed that as the Bible said it was their land, they had a right to take it from the Arabs. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there and gradually expanded through war or skirmishes...gradually taking a little more land every time.

Then came the UN partition in 1946/7 when the UN gave 56% of the country to 33% (Jewish) of the population. The Arabs were not happy as you can imagine!

That's what I was saying - the Zionist movement of the late 19th century is what put large pockets of Jewish population in the region. It wasn't an indigenous Jewish foothold. They aren't ethnically the same as the Jews of ancient Israel.

[hrdguera]

The Jews had a plan. They worked it well and accomplished their immediate goals. That they had long term goals was to be expected except to the uninitiated. Plus they had a couple of allies to help them. Whether it was legal, ethical, or morally correct is really not relevant. It is the way of nations, every nation. We are seeing the same thing happening right now in Egypt. We have seen it in every nation that has come about since the 1600's. The world bends to those that have a plan and the will to see it through. Some could call it part of the human condition to make a nation out of an idea. We did in a time when most of the world still believed in the "Divine right of Kings."

So now the Jews are strong enough, connected enough, and willing to fight to preserve their nation. All this talk about what is legal, what is right, is really immaterial. What if the native North American Indian population had organized enough to stop the tide of American expansion? They lost even if the revisionists now want to give back parts to them. So now what about the current separatist movements in Spain, Canada, Africa, Asia, South America, even here in North America?

The strong survive and prosper. That some countries disappear is not a crime except to victims of nostalgia. I think that we might have to think of it as human nature. Monarchies have come and gone. Nations have come and gone. Whole civilizations have come and gone. Remember this the next time you vote or support a political entity. Do you want to persevere? Vote for strength not weakness. Study the past to know why some fail and go extinct. Ask the Dali Lama what happened to his country? If he had been stronger it would still be his country. Yea, it is a shame, but it is a fact. Reminds me of a song .... "Don't cry for me Argentina!"

So, pick a side and fight. Pick the wrong side, the weak side and you lose. The survivors and the winners write the history.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by hrdguera

So, pick a side and fight. Pick the wrong side, the weak side and you lose. The survivors and the winners write the history.

So in your world the bullies and the strong win...and you're comfortable with that?

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by madmax

They aren't ethnically the same as the Jews of ancient Israel.

Quite! They are Ashkenazi Jews from Germany and Eastern Europe.