evilempire

Wallis · 12-28-2012, 07:01 AM

Hitching on to what Wouldhe wrote, it wa common knowledge even among the Jews of old that a great rabbi had to be associated with miracles. Even if some or all of these miracles were manufactured, the followers of each rabbi were not interested in facts. They were interested in reputation and "authority."

This difference in "reality" between our Jewish ancestors and our modern concepts of "what should be right" is a difficult pill to swallow for we moderns.

We live in an age where black is black and white is white. Gray is merely an inconvenience to be determined at a later date. Especially Western philosophy where any suggestion that there might be more than one reality is quickly dismissed out of hand.

This problem is also apparent in attempts to attack Fundamentalism. For the Fundamentalist, their English translation is the "truth," and nothing this side of heaven is going to change his view of black and white.

What complicates matters is the fact that there is no truth.

We define our "truth" according to agreed-upon Givens (as in math).

A simple example would be to take a rock. We define this rock as solid matter. We can measure this rock in terms of weight and physical dimensions. However, at the same time, the rock is also a form of energy, comprised of basically the same rudimentary elements as everything in the universe around the rock.

It is not useful to regard the rock as mere energy, unless we wish to extract the energy comprising the rock into a different and more useful form of energy. In this physical world, what works for us to delimit the description and efects of the rock as simply solid matter.

The unwillingness of Fundamentalists to see their view of God and the cosmos as a delimited version of all the possibilities existent at the same time is lamentable in my opinion. They see a rock as having only certain dimensions and weight, and anyone who would disagree or offer a different description is not only dismissed out of hand but considered to be "unreal" and "out of line."

The Magnificent · 12-28-2012, 02:17 PM

The "mechanism" that starts evolution is a mixture of the environment and the state of the inhabitants of the environment they are in. You see not one thing in particular sets evolution in motion, because it has always been in motion. This is why scientists refer to it over millions of years. Because at any one point in time you are seeing the current evolutionary status of an animal, plant, fungi, bacteria and so on. In the situation with the finches the way something like that would work would be the finches reproduce in one area and eventually spread out. When the finches are in a new habitat they must adapt to survive. So according to survival of the fittest the finches best suited to thier habitat will survive. So basically if a genetic anomaly occures that makes a finches beak sharper it will be better suited to survive in its new habitat. Or perhaps a slight color variation will make it blend better to its surroundings. These differences will make that particular finch more likely to survive, reproduce, and pass down the genes that set it apart to its offspring. However this is ALWAYS happening and it takes many generations to see impirical evidence, but believe me, the evidence is there. However I am still looking for the evidence of god. I can see and explain the world around me, what I cant explain is grasping on to an ancient ideology because it makes me feel better about dying. Read a science book, I encourage you to evolve so that we can put all this nonsense behind us and progress as a species.

pladecalvo · 12-28-2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Magnificent

I encourage you to evolve so that we can put all this nonsense behind us and progress as a species.

Hear! Hear! Mankind has nothing to lose and everything to gain by losing his belief in ancient mythology.

Francoitalianarmy · 12-28-2012, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Hear! Hear! Mankind has nothing to lose and everything to gain by losing his belief in ancient mythology.

It has EVERYTHING to lose! Just think of all the lost souls that would turn to derelicts like you!!

pladecalvo · 12-29-2012, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francoitalianarmy

It has EVERYTHING to lose! Just think of all the lost souls that would turn to derelicts like you!!

I could make a career out of saving fallen women.

Morbidus · 12-29-2012, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

Your Matthew and Mark Quotes are self-evident that they are false. The reason being is, It gives the impression that a "physical" man will be sitting when in fact the physical is left behind and the spirit moves on. So to say "the son of man is sitting at the right hand of God" is false. We don't know if God has hands nor do we know he is physical. All impressions is that everything is in spiritual form thus making these claims false.

Hey, don't ask me. I didn't write it. So what do YOU think they mean?

Wouldhe · 12-29-2012, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morbidus

Hey, don't ask me. I didn't write it. So what do YOU think they mean?

Not muuuuuuuch.

Wallis · 12-30-2012, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Magnificent

The "mechanism" that starts evolution is a mixture of the environment and the state of the inhabitants of the environment they are in. You see not one thing in particular sets evolution in motion, because it has always been in motion. This is why scientists refer to it over millions of years. Because at any one point in time you are seeing the current evolutionary status of an animal, plant, fungi, bacteria and so on. In the situation with the finches the way something like that would work would be the finches reproduce in one area and eventually spread out. When the finches are in a new habitat they must adapt to survive. So according to survival of the fittest the finches best suited to thier habitat will survive. So basically if a genetic anomaly occures that makes a finches beak sharper it will be better suited to survive in its new habitat. Or perhaps a slight color variation will make it blend better to its surroundings. These differences will make that particular finch more likely to survive, reproduce, and pass down the genes that set it apart to its offspring. However this is ALWAYS happening and it takes many generations to see impirical evidence, but believe me, the evidence is there. However I am still looking for the evidence of god. I can see and explain the world around me, what I cant explain is grasping on to an ancient ideology because it makes me feel better about dying. Read a science book, I encourage you to evolve so that we can put all this nonsense behind us and progress as a species.

Okay. But why?

You haven't described the mechanism that triggers the evolutionary event. And, as far as the finches go, it only took a few generations. They were not even existent on the Island millions of years ago.

pladecalvo · 12-30-2012, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallis

Okay. But why?

You haven't described the mechanism that triggers the evolutionary event. And, as far as the finches go, it only took a few generations. They were not even existent on the Island millions of years ago.

Are you serious Wal? Do you really NOT accept evolution?

Wallis · 12-30-2012, 09:26 AM

Apparently, you are not reading my question correctly.

Believing in evolution is a non-sequitur. Either it is fact or not. That it has occurred, is occurring, and will occur is a fact.

I want to know what triggers it, not some archeological data that shows regression (meaning from the present to the past).

I want to know why a species one morning wakes up and says to its DNA that it must change.

I think a clue--perhaps far-fetched--lies in recent discoveries that the human DNA is already programmed or defective in some individuals regarding the affect of diseases.

Now, syphilis, for example, used to kill off the human host rather rapidly. It still can, but it takes much longer untreated. Why? The syphilis virus have a "brain"? ["Hey, wait a minute! I might be having fun for a year or so, but I just figured out how I can extend my lifetime a bit if I allow this human host to live a bit longer. Eureka!"]

Since "aliens didn't do it" and "man didn't do it", there must be something internal, a mechanism deep within the DNA, that both causes an evolutionary change or prevents it. Take for example the chicken embryo, which tends to develop characteristics of its prehistoric parent before turning out into the little chick we (almost) all love and adore.

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12-28-2012, 07:01 AM	#21
Wallis BPMF! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 2,681	Hitching on to what Wouldhe wrote, it wa common knowledge even among the Jews of old that a great rabbi had to be associated with miracles. Even if some or all of these miracles were manufactured, the followers of each rabbi were not interested in facts. They were interested in reputation and "authority." This difference in "reality" between our Jewish ancestors and our modern concepts of "what should be right" is a difficult pill to swallow for we moderns. We live in an age where black is black and white is white. Gray is merely an inconvenience to be determined at a later date. Especially Western philosophy where any suggestion that there might be more than one reality is quickly dismissed out of hand. This problem is also apparent in attempts to attack Fundamentalism. For the Fundamentalist, their English translation is the "truth," and nothing this side of heaven is going to change his view of black and white. What complicates matters is the fact that there is no truth. We define our "truth" according to agreed-upon Givens (as in math). A simple example would be to take a rock. We define this rock as solid matter. We can measure this rock in terms of weight and physical dimensions. However, at the same time, the rock is also a form of energy, comprised of basically the same rudimentary elements as everything in the universe around the rock. It is not useful to regard the rock as mere energy, unless we wish to extract the energy comprising the rock into a different and more useful form of energy. In this physical world, what works for us to delimit the description and efects of the rock as simply solid matter. The unwillingness of Fundamentalists to see their view of God and the cosmos as a delimited version of all the possibilities existent at the same time is lamentable in my opinion. They see a rock as having only certain dimensions and weight, and anyone who would disagree or offer a different description is not only dismissed out of hand but considered to be "unreal" and "out of line."

12-28-2012, 02:17 PM	#22
The Magnificent Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: San Diego Posts: 1	The "mechanism" that starts evolution is a mixture of the environment and the state of the inhabitants of the environment they are in. You see not one thing in particular sets evolution in motion, because it has always been in motion. This is why scientists refer to it over millions of years. Because at any one point in time you are seeing the current evolutionary status of an animal, plant, fungi, bacteria and so on. In the situation with the finches the way something like that would work would be the finches reproduce in one area and eventually spread out. When the finches are in a new habitat they must adapt to survive. So according to survival of the fittest the finches best suited to thier habitat will survive. So basically if a genetic anomaly occures that makes a finches beak sharper it will be better suited to survive in its new habitat. Or perhaps a slight color variation will make it blend better to its surroundings. These differences will make that particular finch more likely to survive, reproduce, and pass down the genes that set it apart to its offspring. However this is ALWAYS happening and it takes many generations to see impirical evidence, but believe me, the evidence is there. However I am still looking for the evidence of god. I can see and explain the world around me, what I cant explain is grasping on to an ancient ideology because it makes me feel better about dying. Read a science book, I encourage you to evolve so that we can put all this nonsense behind us and progress as a species.

12-30-2012, 09:26 AM	#30
Wallis BPMF! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 2,681	Apparently, you are not reading my question correctly. Believing in evolution is a non-sequitur. Either it is fact or not. That it has occurred, is occurring, and will occur is a fact. I want to know what triggers it, not some archeological data that shows regression (meaning from the present to the past). I want to know why a species one morning wakes up and says to its DNA that it must change. I think a clue--perhaps far-fetched--lies in recent discoveries that the human DNA is already programmed or defective in some individuals regarding the affect of diseases. Now, syphilis, for example, used to kill off the human host rather rapidly. It still can, but it takes much longer untreated. Why? The syphilis virus have a "brain"? ["Hey, wait a minute! I might be having fun for a year or so, but I just figured out how I can extend my lifetime a bit if I allow this human host to live a bit longer. Eureka!"] Since "aliens didn't do it" and "man didn't do it", there must be something internal, a mechanism deep within the DNA, that both causes an evolutionary change or prevents it. Take for example the chicken embryo, which tends to develop characteristics of its prehistoric parent before turning out into the little chick we (almost) all love and adore.