Honey

[santana3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht7yCI_rzfU

[Wouldhe]

Originally Posted by Wallis

This is the crux of the problem, Santana3.

And many Muslims follow the same erroneous path as many Christians: "my way or the highway."

Mohammed rightfully rejected both Judaism and Christianity outright because of two major points:

1. They did not fit the Arabian culture

2. They were so full of hypocritical practices.

Mohammed designed a religion that reflects a lot of Judaism in its laws and rituals. He then took the best of Jesus' philosophy and mixed it in as well.

But the problem lies in the message delivered: the idea that God's message would be delivered to one individual and then expect that one individual to pass down the message in a million languages applicable to a million different cultures.

If you take the time to investigate Christian history, you might be shocked how church leaders over a very short period of time hijacked Jesus' simple message of loving one another--and Charlamagne just turning the message inside out into something unrecognizable--that by the time Mohammed was able to examine it, he knew it for a sham that it was.

Again, as I posted in another thread, any message that God wants to be disseminated would be through a broadcast to one and all.

We are all not cookie-cut into the same creatures. We all do not have the same culture, the same language, not even the same viewpoint of life. How can anyone--be it Jew, Christian, Muslim, or any other religious person--expect a God to be demanding that everyone be cookie-cut into a particular religious pattern.

It is wonderful that you have a relationship with Allah and that you abide by ITs rules, customs, and rites. But Islam is not a panacea for all people. No more than Judaism or Christianity.

A real God does not count noses by nationality, color of skin, or even by religion. A real God takes everybody in, because religion is personal, not group. A real God, who made creation, would not condemn one iota of it, for to do so would be to condemn ITself. And wouldn't that be silly?

But Wallis, there is no real God

[emilynghiem]

Dear Wallis: This is a very good message, thank you.
1. I AGREE that "evil" by definition contradicts what GOD means, so of course,
it is not God's will.

2. However this does NOT contradict God's will being in control
AND humanity having individual responsibility for aligning with God's ideal will.
it is BOTH things.
there IS God's ideal will,
AND there is the learning curve of how we as humans are developing to use our "free will and reason" to make better decisions more in keeping with
the "greater good for all humanity" which is what we know to be "God's will"
or good will for all, which is the real world manifestation in practical terms.

3. So I AGREE with everything you say about people taking responsibility.

4. Where we DISAGREE is
(a) you believe this contradicts the notion of God being in control of all things, where you falsely assume this means that evil is also in the mind of God.
(b) whatever groups or views you don't forgive seems to prevent you from seeing how those very people are contributing to how we are going to address evil and prevent it from subverting people's ability to follow free will and reason

Again I sent you one of the books by Scott Peck who studied evil people. He also wrote "People of the Lie" about what caused these people to make decisions spiritually and mentally to open teh door for evil to possess their thoughts and get them stuck in mindsets he could not counsel them out of.

This does NOT mean that these things are God's mind or will.
It is God's will that we LEARN and UNDERSTAND the DIFFERENCE that forgiveness makes in protecting us from being stuck in victimhood, and is NOT God's will to fall to unforgiveness that allows evil thoughts to take over.

Originally Posted by Wallis

"Evil" is not contained to just malformed sections of the brain. It is ingrained within the psyche of mankind.
...
vs. Everything that happens in this life is God's will. Period. If one iota were not part of God's will, then God ain't God.
...
Bottom line: evil is only in the minds of people, not in the "mind" of God.

Besides, God never promised that this life would be a rose-garden. Get over it. That is supposed to be the prize once we all graduate from this hell. And the sooner we stop complaining about it and start doing something about it, the happier we will all be in this short life, this pre-existence to a real life, whether it is sitting in a garden while grapes fall from the tree into your mouth and 24 virgins take turns sucking dicks or just plain being pure energy and not having to deal with any other soul in the whole cotton-pickin' spiritual universe.

Yes Wallis let's stop complaining about it. Let's embrace the fundamental Christians God put on this earth to address demonic sickness, and also embrace science for being able to prove this from medical studies that can be replicated.
The same Lutheran pastor whose quotes I shared with you which you agreed with has a campus ministry near my alma mater, where I want to push for an academic campaign to prove the effects of spiritual healing and forgiveness therapy on reaching a consensus on God by resolving all conflicting relations. So if you are up to it, Wallis, I'd love to include your university in this study.

The social science and govt teachers in the Lutheran group I joined love the idea of using math and stats to document the patterns of responses, and prove there is consistency in correlation between forgiveness and conflict resolution and ability to resolve religious issues between people of different affiliations.
Comparing views of justice is another way to show correlation with whether people can reconcile with others. So the Restorative Justice people of all tribes should show higher ability to reconcile, while the retributive justice people who don't believe there is justice should report higher levels of unresolved dissonance with others. This would be very interesting Wallis, please consider!

[Wallis]

Wouldhe,

What would you mean by "real" God?

If we are all holograms in some kind of humongous "alien" game console, the "real" God becomes the machine. Or, the collective of the players.

The "real" God could simply be described as the 7 billion "souls" infecting, affecting, and afllicting one another.

[emilynghiem]

Originally Posted by Wallis

Wouldhe,

What would you mean by "real" God?

If we are all holograms in some kind of humongous "alien" game console, the "real" God becomes the machine. Or, the collective of the players.

The "real" God could simply be described as the 7 billion "souls" infecting, affecting, and afllicting one another.

Yes, I agree Wallis!

[Wouldhe]

Originally Posted by Wallis

Wouldhe,

What would you mean by "real" God?

If we are all holograms in some kind of humongous "alien" game console, the "real" God becomes the machine. Or, the collective of the players.

The "real" God could simply be described as the 7 billion "souls" infecting, affecting, and afllicting one another.

LoL Holograms...I'm tellin yha Wallis, if you don't smoka da gunga you should. You could come up with some good stuff for sure. It's funny, sometimes a get a feeling that maybe I'm not real. Like maybe being alive isn't really happening, kind of "hologramish".

[emilynghiem]

Originally Posted by Wouldhe

LoL Holograms...I'm tellin yha Wallis, if you don't smoka da gunga you should. You could come up with some good stuff for sure. It's funny, sometimes a get a feeling that maybe I'm not real. Like maybe being alive isn't really happening, kind of "hologramish".

Our perceptions, Wouldhe.

Buddha called them illusions, everything in life was how we interpret it,
which is intangible and may well be on the same level as dreams in our minds like all our memories.

These things can be manipulated by association, by emotional attachment.

So the sum total of all perceptions of events on top of the events themselves, what if you call the collective set of all things to be God's universe or truth.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by emilynghiem

.... demonic sickness,....

Oy vey!! Can you believe this folks. The 21st century and she still believes that illness is caused by 'demons'!! Madre mia! 300 years ago she would have been burning women as witches just because they had a black cat.

[emilynghiem]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Oy vey!! Can you believe this folks. The 21st century and she still believes that illness is caused by 'demons'!! Madre mia! 300 years ago she would have been burning women as witches just because they had a black cat.

Hey Plad, the "reports of demonic voices" are a SYMPTOM of sickness.
Like Schizophrenia or sometimes multiple-personality disorder
where the voices come out of the person.

What is interesting,
Regardless if these voices are real or imagined,
if they are coming from the patients' minds or from some other realm,

the diagnosis and treatments WORK
to REMOVE these "symptoms" (real or imagined)
where the patients CAN regain control of their minds and free will.

Scott Peck basically shares this in his book
that REGARDLESS what is causing the voices or "reports" of demonic whatever
the deliverance/exorcism treatment WORKS.
He openly states he cannot explain the 1-5% of the phenomena
that was witnessed/reported with the patients he observed,
but even the process that IS documentable scientifically by observation,
that part is ENOUGH to show the process follows a pattern of diagnosis/treatment/cure.

1. one of his patients completely regained her normal mind
and dropped religion and went into medical studies to start a career in that field.
Before the exorcism treatment, she was completely dysfunctional as a
schizophrenic and could not control these "demon voices" talking to her
and compelling her to do addictive destructive things that took over her will

2. the other patient also was able to overcome the negative "SYMPTOMS"
but could not undo all the damage done to her physical body
since she had been neglecting getting medical treatment
and had inflicted serious damage all her adult life (the demonic "symptoms"
had taken over her life since she was 12, whether you call that
"schizophrenia" or what, the SYMPTOMS existed and prevented her from
getting therapy and medical help)
So Dr. Peck was able to cure the mental part of her illness, but even
with medical help the physical symptoms of damage done were too serious
and she died of those complications. Thus, he was compelled to push for
EARLIER diagnosis and treatment to REMOVE the "symptoms" so
people like these patients CAN comply with therapy and other medical help.

Previously both patients were so severely impaired by schizophrenic symptoms
that they could not be treated either by mental therapy or by physical medicine.
Again, you can assume as Dr. Peck did that this was just the schizophrenia talking, including the demonic voices in their heads, where they manipulated how they LOOKED and SPOKE and what these patients shouted and spat at the doctor and therapy team to try to resist and rebel against any kind of help.

Whether you see it as delusional or spiritual,
what he found to be consistently following a pattern
was the stages of diagnosis and treatment,
and even the stages of response and recovery that
"matched" the set description of the steps of deliverance.

So he saw for himself that the STAGES of
treatment and responses during recovery
WERE observable and can be documented
similar to other diseases and stages of treatment.

Plad, even if this is all in the patients' heads,
as long as the treatment works to SAVE LIVES
and get people's SANITY back where they NO LONGER
hear these "demonic" voices (real, schizophrenic, or delusional)
then isn't it worth it to try offering this treatment
which is free and causes no harm and does not
impose any religious belief or requirement to join any church, group or religion.

Both the patient who fully recovered
AND my friend Daron who overcame "reports of demons in his head"
DID NOT become "Christian" but still avoid religion after they
went through this type of therapy and got back to normal lives.

So they remain secular, and not religious.

So both of these objections of yours are not an issue
1. the "demon voices" can be completely delusional in the person's head
and the treatment STILL WORKS
the OBSERVABLE changes in the person are what can be documented
to show that this therapy works in stages to remove "whatever is causing
reports of weird voices or self-destructive behavior in schizophrenic patients"
and to DOCUMENT that the person reports NOT having them and being able to function and even receive therapy and medical treatment they rejected before
2. the treatment does NOT require someone to join or pay any group church or religious affiliation either before or after treatment
It is free, and the focus is on freeing the person from whatever negative thoughts or energies or patterns the person is stuck in, either mentally or
spiritually or whatever level you call this

NOTE:
3. the one factor that is common in these treatments is
the person FREELY and voluntarily agrees to get help,
to identify which things or memories the mind/spirit is stuck on,
and to forgive/let go of these things or ask help to forgive/let go

The different groups and methods -- such as AA or Buddhist regression therapy
or this Christian generational healing process -- work on different levels from the conscious memories in this life that call for healing from abuse to the
deeper levels that can be coming from anywhere, whether you call that
past generations passing sickness down through the family or whatever spiritual level or mental illness level you would call the schizophrenic/demonic voices.

The exorcism/deliverance process has been reported to work to heal
the more severe "symptoms" of schizophrenia, multiple personalities,
and other disorders.

The Buddhist regression and meditation therapy has been reported to heal phobias, depression, addiction, but not the severe schizophrenic delusions.

Plad, you don't have to believe in past lives or generational sins attracting demons to SEE that people have reported regaining their lives, minds and sanity after going through spiritual treatment where the common factor is forgiveness of the past. These different treatments just take it to different levels, from the minor levels we can choose to change with our own free will, to the most extreme levels of loss of control where the person has no will over the "schizophrenic/demonic symptoms" and seeks help from a team of people to intervene (who do have enough positive energy as a group to overcome the negative energy that has taken over the mind and will of the patient).

I think the biggest barrier to all this is the forgiveness part.

Forgiveness is both the key to the treatment itself, and to the free sharing of
information and conducting formal research to document this scientifically!

As long as there is unforgiveness, that is what keeps patients dependent and stuck in the past where they remain sick.
And that is what keeps doctors, scientists and the religious community
from working together to map out a plan for formal medical research.

People are still working on forgiving the past and
forgiving each other for differences and conflicts.

The more those barriers drop, the more information
and understanding will come out that will reveal what is going on
with these reports of healing of schizophrenia and demonic addictions!

Thanks, Plad
Please take care, and
I will keep working on setting up
a team and a website to promote
formal research in this field!

Many people will benefit
so thank you in advance
for pushing for scientific proof!

Yours truly,
Emily

[emilynghiem]

Dear Plad and Wouldhe:
How ironic that in the opening of MacNutt's book on "Healing" he admits the SAME natural reaction, that he thought all this stuff was from the Dark Ages, and had no idea there was still spiritual healing going on as a common practice. He went from having this same perception, to becoming a teacher in it (and writing that book on the steps and explaining where the process fails if steps are skipped or problems are misdiagnosed).

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Oy vey!! Can you believe this folks. The 21st century and she still believes that illness is caused by 'demons'!! Madre mia! 300 years ago she would have been burning women as witches just because they had a black cat.

Peck also admits he totally opposed this idea as a scientist and medical professional, and still holds that even if the spiritual phenomena can never be proven and only the observable reactions and cure of the patients' schizophrenic symptoms, that part is ENOUGH to satisfy the scientific method of tryingn to identify the suspected cause by diagnosis, then applying the treatment, observing the changes to see if this follows the patterns of recovery and solves the problem, and either verifying the patient has completed the process successfully and is cured or going back and re-diagnosing the problems or steps to be taken if the patient is not showing improvement.

Dear Wouldhe: I already sent the two books by Dr. MacNutt and Dr. Peck to Wallis, and offer to send them to Plad.

Since you seem objective and not emotionally biased against the possibility of scientific documentation that this healing therapy works,
may I please send you these books and could you give your opinion if Dr. Peck has a point -- that the scientific method CAN be applied to study the EFFECTS of spiritual healing on schizophrenic patients who report hearing voices etc.

Plad seems to believe all this is just a ploy to push religion.

But in Peck's cases, the patient who was completely cured GAVE UP religion and went into medical studies once she got her mind back.

And also my friend Daron who went through this process reported some of the same reactions as the patient in Peck's book: he said he had no interest in anything religious or Christian or even promoting this therapy because it "felt like rape" even though he WAS able to control his thoughts and not feel victim to demon voices in his head anymore after he went through the prayer therapy to remove all the unforgiveness that these negative emotions were attached to.

I would like your opinion, and see if that helps Plad and Wallis
see this has scientific and medical value, where people (1) don't have to become Christian or religious but can remain nontheist and nonreligious and still receive the benefits and effects of the spiritual healing through FORGIVENESS, and (2) don't have to believe it is spiritual or real, but can still apply the scientific process to the changes in the person's symptoms whether these are real or imagined, schizophrenic or demonic or whatever the heck.
(3) the process and therapy are FREE where this is NOT about making money, but in fact, would reduce the drug dependency on medicines that don't treat or cure peopel but only placate the symptoms that these free methods REMOVE.
so this would potentially reform the medical, mental health and also criminal justice system where resources and lives are lost to the high cost of problems.

Wouldhe, I trust your judgment.

If you have a mailing address where I can please send you the books I sent to Wallis, please send to me at my address or email
emilynghiem at hotmail dot com
Emily Nghiem
PO BOX 981101
HOUSTON TX 77098

Anyone else can also reply who wants a free copy of those books
to post your own opinion if this can be approached scientifically
to document the SYMPTOMS before and after treatment
(regardless if this is real or delusional and noting this does NOT require any
condition based on religious or financial requirement)

Wouldhe since you came from a Catholic background, it may be interesting to note that MacNutt used to be a Catholic priest, but split from them on the issue that "other people" could participate in spiritual healing not just priests ordained to do exorcisms through the church authority. So he does nondenominational outreach.

And the most intriguing part I found was that people don't have to become Christian to receive the benefits of the spiritual healing and forgiveness therapy.
Peck documents this in his book, which surprised him also.
And I found it equally striking that my friend Daron who didn't read the book reported a lot of the same reactions, even using the same words, as the patient in Peck's book. I didn't even understand why my friend was saying those things, until I read it in Peck's book, so I realized he was following the same patterns.

It hurt me to see my friend go through such a painful process, but the pain he experienced of being abused repeatedly as a child and also being attacked as an adult, and the rage and fear he suppressed and carried from these abuses that was causing him repeat injury through addiction and abuse was greater damage.
The pain of scraping out and cleaning out all that damage out of his mind was only a 1 time procedure, that hurt like hell, and he did not want to let go; but when it was over, he knows he never has to go through that again; and all the rage and fear of not having control is GONE and he is free to live a normal life.
He still has to be under medical therapy for the damage he did to his body in the past during his addictions to alcohol and hard drugs; but his body is responding and he is overcoming his fear of losing control to panic/anxiety attacks. So he is like the other patient in the book who had other medical symptoms to treat in addition to the emotional/mental level where the demonic rage was stuck until the treatment removed that part. Unlike the patient who died of the medical symptoms because they were not treated in time, at least my friend Daron has a chance to recover from his medical symptoms. Maybe the next person will receive diagnosis and treatment sooner, and not have to suffer all those years in fear before getting this help to start living a normal life.

Thanks Wouldhe
Plad and Wallis

I trust your judgment, that if you
observed the same things Peck did
you could see how science could document
these same patterns of diagnosis/treatment/cure. But you would be able
to explain it even MORE objectively since you are NOT Christian
where you could reach more of the medical/secular community
and show it does NOT depend on having Christian faith for these
things to work and to be documented as following the scientific method.

Would love to have your feedback on this
AFTER observing the same things
others have with their own eyes, seeing
the before and after effects in people
suffering from either "schizophrenic" or "demonic"
voices, whatever level of the mind or spirit you call this!