Honey

[OneArm]

Originally Posted by Sapphire

The muslims do NOT follow Jesus Christ. They follow their fake god.

Those who follow Jesus are HIS sheep. and those who follow after fake gods and fake gospels are goats.

You keep using the phrase, fake god. What makes his god any less real than yours? Both have the same amount of evidence that they exist. The only difference between his god and yours, is you.

[Wouldhe]

Originally Posted by OneArm

You keep using the phrase, fake god. What makes his god any less real than yours? Both have the same amount of evidence that they exist. The only difference between his god and yours, is you.

...or not exist.

[santana3]

no

Those in the past of you

Explain more than wonderful to clarify the lies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYpr7pPw2t8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqS_lRsWMGE

--Jesus Christ peace be upon him in Islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daLCY6VsPqk

[Wallis]

Not sure what you mean by "lies," Santana.

1. When it comes to matters of faith, there are no "lies." At least to the individual. When the individual accepts a concept as part of his belief system, then that concept becomes a truth.

Now, to the outside community, it is fairly easy to state that a concept of faith is silly, is false, and/or is stupid.

For the believer, it can be upsetting when other people mock his beliefs.

2. The word "lies" seems to be in vogue these days. A popular term, that is. The President lies. Islam lies. Christianity lies. Everyone likes to jump on that phrase to discredit what they do not like.

We humans spend an inordinate amount of time picking gnats out of our rice bowls while the cockroaches and other large insects are eating us out of house and home. Those gnats that I speak of consist of the nit-picking and mocking of beliefs that are contrary to what we individually feel is right or correct.

We, for some crazy mixed-up reason, love to pick on religion. Any and all religions. We go so far as to characterize religions by name-calling, mocking dress and rites, ridiculing the very basic human right to believe whatever a person desires to believe.

People of religion are often the worst offenders. Instead of opening up arms and accepting / tolerating other people's beliefs, there is this insane desire to try and convert everyone to a particular set of beliefs. This is another gnat that people concentrate on.

The three videos that you presented, along with a great deal more offered on the right side of the web page, are typical of Christian testimonial offerings: talk, talk, talk.

If there is a fault in religion, there lies (different verb) the biggest problem. We talk too much and do little action.

3. We are also beating a dead horse. The horse doesn't seem to mind, as it is already past caring. Psychologically, I guess, it makes the beater feel much better about himself and life in general. At least, he isn't killing more horses in the process. I hope that is not the case.

Islam is not better than Christianity or any form / sect of Christianity.

Likewise, Christianity is not better than Islam.

Nor is Islam or Christianity better than any other religion.

Even agnosticism or atheism is not better than religion.

Religion (or lack thereof, because most atheists bridle when told that their beliefs of the non-existence of God is their religion) is a personal thing. It is not a group thing. That religion is a personal thing goes against the grain of human nature, in my opinion, because we humans cannot stand for anyone who goes against the social grain. We cannot abide anyone who "goes it alone." We demand that everyone "toe the line," submit to the "cookie-cutter" design of the favored religion, culture, or political structure.

4. I am not going to convert to Islam. Personally, I feel that it simply becomes a shroud under which I can continue to be human, that nasty, anti-God creature that I was born to be. I can use it as a shield to hide from God's eyes all the evil thoughts, words, and deeds. Silly, huh? Especially when Muslims mouth the belief that God is All-seeing and knows what is happening in the hearts of all men.

I am not going to convert to Catholicism, either, even though I am pretty much engrained in a Catholic university. It, too, has created this anti-God shield whereby people can be their nasty selves, hoping not to expire before their next confession so they can be forgiven of their sins.

As a theologian, I am probably just within the external limits of being accepted as a Christian (vanilla type) by other Christians. Christianity has veered so far from the mainstream of the Christ's teachings that it just isn't funny. It is tragic.

I like Buddhism, but I am not going to convert to it. In many ways, it dovetails with what I have learned about the Christ's teachings and the simple message he tried to pass on, which briefly took root and then was corrupted beyond comprehension. Well, maybe that is pretty strong. People are quite adept at corruption, and comprehension of why we do that is pretty open.

I am not going to become atheist either. For me, it is a cop-out. "Oh well, everyone is so far out of touch with the real world with this God-craze. There is no God, and that is just fine with me." Another failing of the human race. Everything has to be either right or wrong. Everything has to be either black or white. Everything has to be straight or crooked. Everything has to be either a one (1) or a zero (0). And life just doesn't fit that paradigm. Life consists of so many paradigms. Yet, here we are, sitting on our "thrones" ('cause we have a lot of shit we have to pass out to the whole world), trying to force a polyhedral shape into either a pefectly round hole or a perfectly square hole. The energy we waste on life and in life is nearly incalcuable.

No. I am going to be me. I have put on a set of beliefs and concepts that I feel are pretty close to what I believe God wants for me. Most of the time, it requires passivity, acceptance, and tolerance. Every now and then, someone pops up claiming to speak with the voice and authority of God and making pronouncements that are so anti-God to make a person sick. That's when I go to the mattresses.

5. We humans are such a weird oddity in life. God must have a huge sense of humor, and we provide IT with non-stop entertainment. We proceed as if we are the center of the universe and have all the answers to both sides of life and death. We are quick to pontificate our own beliefs and quicker to denigrate, ridicule, and exterminate those beliefs that we deem "wrong."

Personally, I tire of being human. I have been human for several lifetimes that I feel I am aware of. I tire of being in a fucked-up body, a fucked-up mind, and in a fucked-up existence where nothing really matters. I am tired of trying to transform myself into an eagle while being held back by a pack of moles.

But until the hour of my release, my get-out-of-jail-free card, when I just might possibly slip the chains of being human and becoming something much more worthwhile, I am going to be me. Love me, hate me: it doesn't matter.

In the long run, nothing matters anyway. It is in this tiny, fleeting moment of the present that matters. And then, the present is gone forever.

Yesterday never happened; tomorrow never comes. So why do we humans constantly prefer living in past or trying to change the future? If God is here in the now, the fleeting moments of the present, IT must be both amused and perplexed as to why humans continue to look in the wrong places and directions, scurrying around like chickens without heads, worrying about all the wrong things in life.

Go back to my comment on Ecclesiastes. It says it all.

[Wouldhe]

Whew!

[emilynghiem]

Originally Posted by Wallis

Not sure what you mean by "lies," Santana.

When it comes to matters of faith, there are no "lies." At least to the individual. When the individual accepts a concept as part of his belief system, then that concept becomes a truth.

Now, to the outside community, it is fairly easy to state that a concept of faith is silly, is false, and/or is stupid.

For the believer, it can be upsetting when other people mock his beliefs.

Yikes! Wallis!!
Please qualify what you mean here.
You DO recognize there are different levels of "truth" by your description.
YES "lying to oneself" is a type of denial which is NOT truth but perception.

So if you start calling that "truth" then that is
going to get confusing real quick!

Some people SAY they believe X Y Z
but when it is pointed out they contradict their INHERENT beliefs
then those perceptions change, so that is not what I would call truth.

I would make a CLEAR distinction between
what is REALLY true for people underneath what they
believe and perceive,
and what is their PERCEPTION past present and future.

Wallis, I found out that people impose a bias even on their OWN perceptions
if they carry unresolved conflict. So that get in the way of their
true beliefs, where they state all kinds of things that turn out to change later.

Please be careful to distinguish these levels you are calling "truth."

[emilynghiem]

Originally Posted by Wallis

2. The word "lies" seems to be in vogue these days. A popular term, that is. The President lies. Islam lies. Christianity lies. Everyone likes to jump on that phrase to discredit what they do not like.

We humans spend an inordinate amount of time picking gnats out of our rice bowls while the cockroaches and other large insects are eating us out of house and home. Those gnats that I speak of consist of the nit-picking and mocking of beliefs that are contrary to what we individually feel is right or correct.

We, for some crazy mixed-up reason, love to pick on religion. Any and all religions. We go so far as to characterize religions by name-calling, mocking dress and rites, ridiculing the very basic human right to believe whatever a person desires to believe.

People of religion are often the worst offenders. Instead of opening up arms and accepting / tolerating other people's beliefs, there is this insane desire to try and convert everyone to a particular set of beliefs. This is another gnat that people concentrate on.

Dear Wallis: I think you and I both know that people are in the business of projecting and pointing out faults onto others.

This gets projected onto religion and politics but it is people trying to sort out boundaries and where each person is under which policy in the "pecking order"

I agree with you it gets tiring.

I believe people's view underneath are what they are,
and then the language used to express it is what
comes out using systems like Buddhism, Christianity,
Constitutional laws, Islam etc.

So I am interested in people's views inherently, underneath the religious or
political rhetoric, and then trying to figure out how to communicate
with different people when we are using different systems.

It is forever fascinating to me, but yes, it gets tiring where
people just want to pick at each other back and forth
and not get to the real content underneath that is truly interesting to me!

A lot of the conflict is in perception,
and not distinguishing perception from people's beliefs underlying that.

I find if you get to the content underneath
people can agree on that.

But if we cannot forgive each other's perceptions
we stay stuck on that level that detracts from the real content
where we could have agreed!

I hope more ppl figure this out
because it would be much more fun
putting all our clashing perceptions aside instead of getting caught up in that,
and getting to what's really going on universally and inclusively!

[Wallis]

Originally Posted by emilynghiem

yikes! Wallis!!
Please qualify what you mean here.
You do recognize there are different levels of "truth" by your description.
Yes "lying to oneself" is a type of denial which is not truth but perception.

So if you start calling that "truth" then that is
going to get confusing real quick!

Some people say they believe x y z
but when it is pointed out they contradict their inherent beliefs
then those perceptions change, so that is not what i would call truth.

I would make a clear distinction between
what is really true for people underneath what they
believe and perceive,
and what is their perception past present and future.

Wallis, i found out that people impose a bias even on their own perceptions
if they carry unresolved conflict. So that get in the way of their
true beliefs, where they state all kinds of things that turn out to change later.

Please be careful to distinguish these levels you are calling "truth."

oh for christ's sake, emily. There is no truth! The only truth that matters is what is between your ears!

Of course people impose a bias based on their own perceptions. That is what makes them the lowest of the lowest of all creation!

[Wallis]

Originally Posted by emilynghiem

Dear Wallis: I think you and I both know that people are in the business of projecting and pointing out faults onto others.

This gets projected onto religion and politics but it is people trying to sort out boundaries and where each person is under which policy in the "pecking order"

I agree with you it gets tiring.

I believe people's view underneath are what they are,
and then the language used to express it is what
comes out using systems like Buddhism, Christianity,
Constitutional laws, Islam etc.

So I am interested in people's views inherently, underneath the religious or
political rhetoric, and then trying to figure out how to communicate
with different people when we are using different systems.

It is forever fascinating to me, but yes, it gets tiring where
people just want to pick at each other back and forth
and not get to the real content underneath that is truly interesting to me!

A lot of the conflict is in perception,
and not distinguishing perception from people's beliefs underlying that.

I find if you get to the content underneath
people can agree on that.

But if we cannot forgive each other's perceptions
we stay stuck on that level that detracts from the real content
where we could have agreed!

I hope more ppl figure this out
because it would be much more fun
putting all our clashing perceptions aside instead of getting caught up in that,
and getting to what's really going on universally and inclusively!

Who gives a fuck about forgiveness!

If people didn't take offense at everything in the first place, there would be no need for forgiveness!

And if people want to wallow in the past, that's their problem. The past is finished. Caput! Dead! Never happened.

It's time people started using their superior intellect and stop living soap opera lives and start living in the present.

Life is what it is. Accept it and stop trying to change it. You are the only person you can change in any respect.

Jesus Criminey! Can't you just be happy?

[emilynghiem]

Originally Posted by Wallis

oh for christ's sake, emily. There is no truth! The only truth that matters is what is between your ears!

Of course people impose a bias based on their own perceptions. That is what makes them the lowest of the lowest of all creation!

Yes, I agree with you.
I find the issue is our biases we impose on our own perceptions
and then PROJECT that onto others, but we BLAME others
instead of taking responsibility for our perceptions on our side.

Our ability to perceive either consistently or inconsistently
makes us the lowest but also gives capacity for the highest udnerstanding.

What can be a weakness is our strength
but abused this capacity brings us down.

Thanks, Wallis
I do agree that is the issue, how to resolve our perceptions,
even where we remain biased, and accept our mutual biases.

You are right also, we should let go and let the past be the past
and start over. But the human memory and conscience is set up
to learn from the past so we remember! So we need to work with
our perceptions to learn from the past, as you described in a previous msg about letting go, and not hold on with unforgiveness which I am saying is causing the projections!

How do we get to this point in ALL relations Wallis?
How do we agree to focus together and quit projecting the past?

If we can agree to do that, that IS the same as letting go/forgiveness.

So that is what I am asking. Thanks, Wallis
I agree and the way you say it makes sense to me,
though I said it differently, in PRACTICE we'd let go and agree where to focus!